Published 2005-10-28 09:59:01

While speculation is rife over Zend's new almost vapourware, I sit and wonder where it is going. What can you add to the mountains of comments that have preceded this release. I even wonder if Zend are playing their old favourite Microsoft game of hiring the competition.

Frameworks are an odd component of programming, for a change, this week slashdot published a link to a very relivant article, detailing how in some respects Graphical Development enviroments enable API writers to go crazy and create bloated libraries, which are solved by spiffy features in the editor (make you think of ZDE?). Yet dont address the fundimental issue that the API was fat and nasty to begin with.. From the quick look at Wez's post, that is one of my suspicions for the Zend framework.. but you can hardly comment on something that is not there...

Writing small clean API's is an ongoing challenge, And while PHP5 offers many new features, Having coded a few hacks in it, I begin to feel like it is persuading me to go down the bloated API route. While PHP4's object model may be regarded as a pain, defaulting to cloning objects is actually rather handy in 9 out of 10 situations..

To me a pear provides about the best you can get for frameworks, (ignoring the fact that a pageloader is not included) as it provides small re-usable components, that are in generally well looked after, and improved over time. (look at my libraries in there, some just had their 3rd birthday).

There is something about having a single source of code libraries provided and sponsered by companies (who are larger than the rest of us), smacks of the .NET/Java mess, where you spend more time reading about the obtuse class libraries, than understanding the code you are fixing.

One thing I find annoying about the justification for Zend's Framework is the IP FUD, calling a spade a spade, IP issues around libraries is not that complex.. - As long as you avoid GPL code in non GPL projects, for the most part you should be ok.. - hardly something that needs to involve 22 layers of lawyers..

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not the target audience for such a framework... - It's probably more aimed at the clueless IT department manager, who see's big names behind a library and assumes it's good, (sound like a MS/Sun strategy?) rather than letting the project architect decide on an approach and trust in their judgement....


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Comments

Some feedback
Hey Alan,

Just wanted to give you some feedback regarding your post.

I agree that the term framework is scary. It does remind people (including myself) of bloat and complex APIs. That's why our developers have "Extreme Simplicity" written on their whiteboards, and we double and tripple check ourselves to make sure we're not overcomplicating things. Our aim is to provide functionality which address 80% of the users. As I mentioned in my previous post, I definitely see people using native APIs and their favorite libraries, side-by-side. But be assured. My main goal is to keep complexity low.

Regarding IP Fud, it's actually not Fud. It's definitely an issue for many companies, and one of the main reasons why they write everything from scratch. But just to be clear, that is not the only or even main reason for the framework. I think there's a big need for something like this in the PHP space, to keep PHP competitive with technologies such as .NET and Ruby on Rails.

You personally might not be the target audience, but I definitely think that many, including project architects, will be happy that they don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's all about choice and this framework will be one of the possible choices. I am sure there will be lots of people who will prefer not to use a framework and just use plain PHP, or use other component libraries such as PEAR (or maybe a mix of all three). It's worked for many up to now and there's no reason it shouldn't continue to work for many.

Anyway, thanks for posting your thoughts!

Andi
#0 - Andi Gutmans ( Link) on 2005-10-28 10:50:35 Delete Comment
Hardly the competition
Hi Alan,

It's flattering to think someone would think of <a href="http://solarphp.com">Solar</a> as competing on the same playing field as Zend. Much as I like the idea, I don't think that's the case. :-)

And to clarify, Zend didn't approach me; Andi posted a help-wanted on his blog, and I answered it. We know how that worked out. :-)
#1 - Paul M. Jones ( Link) on 2005-10-31 05:27:50 Delete Comment

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